tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post3128652189642341441..comments2023-10-31T10:57:37.652+00:00Comments on Epiphenom: Does Chinese culture reflect a lack of monotheism?Epiphenomhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-27173159681423712802012-01-27T19:11:26.552+00:002012-01-27T19:11:26.552+00:00The author of the article is perhaps unaware of th...The author of the article is perhaps unaware of the fact that China does not possess a single culture. Even within the Han Chinese majority, Hakka, Cantonese, Fujian, and the general mainland northern cultures are all distinct from one another, with the southern Chinese having preserved more of Chinese folk religious thought and practices as well as Confucianism. The current problems in mainland China that you describe reflect a lack of civil refinement as a result of the Proletariat Revolution after the advent of the Communist Party (and their numerous self-destructive acts towards Chinese culture that were carried out last century: a government implemented systematic ridding of Chinese culture and taking on of Marxist societal tenets). Moreover, the Chinese were in actuality originally monotheists before the advent of Taoism and import of Buddhism from India. Traces of this monotheism survives to this day.gyozaboihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07012742169195839813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-54007318886409088722011-11-04T10:10:52.528+00:002011-11-04T10:10:52.528+00:00When I worked in the Middle East about twenty year...When I worked in the Middle East about twenty years ago, it was widely thought amongst the expats that rendering assistance in the case of an accident would make you responsible for the victim's fate.<br /><br />I hadn't really thought about it till now (fortunately I never had to put this to the test), but perhaps someone knows whether this is part of Islamic law (Islam is strictly momotheist).severnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-50528945453552640032011-10-28T17:33:22.227+01:002011-10-28T17:33:22.227+01:00What I was asserting with my analogy to non-procre...What I was asserting with my analogy to non-procreative sex is this: That different cultures vary in the expression of out-group altruism is not at all evidence against out-group altruism being an evolutionary byproduct, like non-procreative sex is.<br /><br />(On a side note, I almost mentioned the pair-bonding theories, but please... The fact that sex is enjoyable is <i>obviously</i> a byproduct of making it so people do as much procreative sex as possible, and it just seems absurd to me to suggest that non-procreative sex is not at least <i>predominantly</i> a byproduct. Natural selection being the greedy bastard it is, it is of course completely plausible that this byproduct has been co-opted for other uses, but it is first and foremost a byproduct. This much seems so painfully obvious to me, it blows my mind that some people insist on rejecting it.)<br /><br />That we have the <i>capacity</i> for outgroup altruism is undoubtedly an evolutionary byproduct as well; I simply can't see a coherent way to argue otherwise. Whether that capacity is expressed by default (i.e. whether we are naturally restrictive with our altruism and need "universal" religions to broaden it vs. that we are naturally universal about our altruism and "need" certain cultural influence to restrict it), I think that is another matter. The rarity of cultures where examples of outgroup altruism are difficult to find suggests to me that this byproduct is expressed naturally, i.e. "universal" religions are not needed for it. But that's just an inkling; we don't have data on that.James Sweethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212877636980569324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-13520546128003348872011-10-27T15:36:09.331+01:002011-10-27T15:36:09.331+01:00nescient to strangers?
doe sin -> does in
inj...nescient to strangers?<br /><br />doe sin -> does in<br /><br />injured -> scathedalysdexiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11185848590491282552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-83883516205554271462011-10-25T18:39:42.044+01:002011-10-25T18:39:42.044+01:00Whenever I read a group level selectionist or cult...Whenever I read a group level selectionist or cultural evolutionist study purporting to show that moralizing gods promote altruism, cooperation, and social complexity, I think about China, which stands as one giant counterfactual to the whole line of argument. China is routinely ignored in these kinds of studies.Crishttp://genealogyreligion.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-58449576845659157202011-10-25T18:27:03.827+01:002011-10-25T18:27:03.827+01:00but the real issue is not so much the behaviour of...but the real issue is not so much the behaviour of the hit-and-run drivers. The greater puzzle is the behaviour of the innocent passers by who failed to stop. True, you could argue that this was also influenced by the legal framework, but laws don't come out of nowhere - they reflect societal morals.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-13830150405595153692011-10-25T17:13:20.627+01:002011-10-25T17:13:20.627+01:00I believe Chinese culture in these instances is mo...I believe Chinese culture in these instances is more concerned with legal liability than with monotheism. <br />When a Chinese citizen is injured, that citizen's health care expenses are paid by the individual who caused the injury. If the citizen requires care for the rest of his or her life, the person responsible for the injury is liable to support the citizen for life.<br />Hence the vehicle that ran over the child to begin with backed up and ran over her again. Facing a charge of, say, manslaughter is far less a burden than is caring for a small child for the rest of its life.<br />Callous? Yes. Heartless and craven? Of course.<br />But it has NOTHING to do with monotheism or polytheism or any such thing. Earning a decent living is foremost in the minds of Chinese citizens - religion is, at best, a secondary concern.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-19106011057532958742011-10-24T21:33:50.964+01:002011-10-24T21:33:50.964+01:00James, yes but non-procreative sex arguably is eit...James, yes but non-procreative sex arguably is either a by-product (i.e. a failure of evolution to cut out wastful energy expenditure) or has a indirect benefit (e.g. strengthening pair bonds). Different culture could reinforce either, but not necessarily with equal success. Not saying that is the case, but just illustrating the complexity of cultural evolution.<br /><br />Anyway, yes, I'm sure that culture can direct altruism to different targets. And that's really the argument of those who say that these 'universal' religions paved the way for mega-societies. Because what they set up is an extended kinship - people regard themselves as siblings, even if they are not related.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-39536045170068028102011-10-24T20:56:36.365+01:002011-10-24T20:56:36.365+01:00Yes, Benjamin and others - it's not at all cle...Yes, Benjamin and others - it's not at all clear if this is real, and if it is real whether it's linked in any meaningful way to religion. But it is something unusual to ponder about. Unfortunately the only cross-cultural study I know of (the one I referenced in the post) didn't include any countries outside the judaeo-christian orbit.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-67467868431446364662011-10-24T19:39:32.719+01:002011-10-24T19:39:32.719+01:00Sorry, my point, a little longer (but not detailed...Sorry, my point, a little longer (but not detailed enough—I fear) is outlined here.<br />(http://fauceir.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/fauceir-analysis-of-eastern-and-western-cultural-evolution/)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-73157676552236923652011-10-24T14:25:54.798+01:002011-10-24T14:25:54.798+01:00Interesting stuff to chew on. One thought I had i...Interesting stuff to chew on. One thought I had is that perhaps it is not so much that Western monotheism inspires an unnatural extension of altruism, but perhaps that some idiosyncratic aspect of Chinese culture causes an unnatural refocusing of it.<br /><br />The fact that a more limited altruism is more straightforwardly useful from an evolutionary standpoint does not necessarily imply evolutionary vs. cultural origins. I would take non-procreative sex as a counter-example to that idea. Obviously from an evolutionary perspective, sex is "for" procreation. But it seems that in our natural state would like to have a hell of a lot more sex than is necessary for procreation -- and as the numerous political sex scandals have shown, this is true even when it is obviously to our own personal detriment. It is only culture, usually religion in particular, which has given some people the (IMO rather tragic) idea that sex should only ever be reserved for procreation.<br /><br />By the same token, it is <i>possible</i> (this is not evidence of, it is simply evidence that it's not impossible) that while altruism is "for" your relatives and possibly community members from an evolutionary perspective, it is only the focusing effects of culture that allow it to be so directed. Natural selection encodes for a "be nice" gene (so to speak), and some culture tells you to reserve that emotion only for those who are in your inner circle?<br /><br />Just a thought.James Sweethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212877636980569324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-2094926202813381352011-10-24T03:34:09.860+01:002011-10-24T03:34:09.860+01:00eh, Barrow's story mentions that there were pl...eh, Barrow's story mentions that there were plenty of boats nearby, presumably with many people who were in a position to readily help.<br /><br />This brings to mind the story of Kitty Genovese.<br />Dilution of responsibility & the resulting bystander effect seem to be alive and well in other cultures. Likely those who went overboard would have stood a much better chance of getting help if the water was dangerous and there was only the one boat that could plausibly save them.<br />With no others to hide behind, others to rely on to step forward, people are more likely to lend a helping hand.Kassulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-704822430428089462011-10-24T03:04:34.341+01:002011-10-24T03:04:34.341+01:00I suspect you could find cases like this anywhere ...I suspect you could find cases like this anywhere in the world. Before trying to explain alleged variations in altruism between one country and another, it would be best to determine scientifically whether such differences really exist.Benjamin Geerhttp://sites.google.com/site/benjamingeer/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-75694629639719607462011-10-24T01:45:08.081+01:002011-10-24T01:45:08.081+01:00I'm British but I've lived in Thailand for...I'm British but I've lived in Thailand for the better part of a decade. Thailand, like China, doesn't have any significant history of monotheism but I can't say I've noticed a lack of altruism. In fact, and this is an entirely unscientific observation, altruism seems to be more, not less prevalent.Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-43608894027883658252011-10-23T22:46:29.125+01:002011-10-23T22:46:29.125+01:00I am not very knowledgeable in chinese culture, bu...I am not very knowledgeable in chinese culture, but I doubt if this specific behavior is related to a lack of mono-theism. I am an Indian and I have not observed any lack of empathy in situations simialr to the ones discussed in the post. Neither do India have anti-good samaritan laws as far as I know.<br />So, while this social behavior might have something to do with relgion, I am pretty certain its relation to a mono-theist religion is at best tenuousBamboo Dreamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11620107234262031891noreply@blogger.com