tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post4808892530341025153..comments2023-10-31T10:57:37.652+00:00Comments on Epiphenom: Can going to church change your views of god?Epiphenomhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-77482173772892128452010-03-17T04:19:04.950+00:002010-03-17T04:19:04.950+00:00Oh, my wife worked her tush off for him. I was/ am...Oh, my wife worked her tush off for him. I was/ am a bit reserved. I agree with your wife, and suppose it wouldn't be a bad thing either. Too bad he can't come out of the closet till next term. David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-47543633269382743642010-03-16T16:22:43.511+00:002010-03-16T16:22:43.511+00:00David Mc -- No, I think Obama is sincere in his Ch...David Mc -- No, I think Obama is sincere in his Christianity. Well, I suspect he is somewhat "agnostic" about many of the specific truth claims, but it seemed fairly clear to me from <i>Dreams from My Father</i> that he at least believes in the spirituality and community aspects, so strongly that he's willing to swallow the dogma uncritically. At least, that's the impression I got from the book.<br /><br />Now, my wife thinks he's a secret atheist, but she is still experiencing some of the optimistic afterglow of the inspiring campaign and historic election, and as a result tends to see Obama through rose-colored glasses (and to our family, a president being an atheist would be a positive thing).James Sweethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212877636980569324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-22409866650976188392010-03-15T22:47:08.690+00:002010-03-15T22:47:08.690+00:00You think Obama's an atheist? "They get b...You think Obama's an atheist? "They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them". Yeah, maybe so. I don't think he's a gun nut either. I bet he's a smoker though, darn hypocrite. I'm not talking tobacco either. Anyway, I returned to Church over a year ago. Still not feeling the "personal" bit. David McAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-19370454829762341312010-03-15T22:15:51.145+00:002010-03-15T22:15:51.145+00:00James, you've put your finger on the most fasc...James, you've put your finger on the most fascinating result. Why do the poor not go to Church even when they believe in a personal god, whereas the rich don't go to Church even when they believe in one. <br /><br />Why are the levels of belief in a personal god the same among churchgoers, rich or poor, but different among non-churchgoers. Given that you might expect rich and poor to go to church for different reasons, the fact that they end up with similar beliefs about the nature of god seems significant.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-38379065605776473862010-03-15T15:49:12.640+00:002010-03-15T15:49:12.640+00:00But if people with low socioeconomic status were m...But if people with low socioeconomic status were more likely to report a fondness for Italian food regardless of how often they ate it, while rich people displayed more of the expected causation, wouldn't that be a significant result?<br /><br />Tom has a point in regards to there being an incentive for those with high SES to go to church regardless of belief. Look at Obama. Regardless of how ingenuous his belief is (and I suspect he is sincere, but one can never truly know the mind of another), if hypothetically he were an atheist, it would be very much in his best interests to STFU about that and go to church anyway.<br /><br />That line of argumentation doesn't <i>prove</i> anything, but it at least does suggest a means by which the correlation could be strengthened by the causation posited in this article.<br /><br />And anyway, even if the causation on the right hand side of the graph is purely in the those-who-believe-already-choose-to-go-to-church-anyway direction, it's still a significant result to show that this correlation is far weaker on the left side of the graph. Heh, in fact, if the causation is purely in that direction, then the conclusion we'd have to draw from this data is that the poor people who do not go to church and yet believe in a personal God (i.e. the far left of the bottom line) are not necessarily clinging to that belief despite the lack of church-o-genic reinforcement, but rather, they believe and <i>want</i> to go to church but are unable for some reason. Okay, that logic works for Scientology and, depending on the temple, Judaism maybe. But for evangelical Christianity? I'm pretty sure they don't, uh, exactly kick out the poor, y'know?James Sweethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212877636980569324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-69759169334950482392010-03-15T00:53:05.339+00:002010-03-15T00:53:05.339+00:00It's a bogus causation. One goes to church be...It's a bogus causation. One goes to church because one believes... not the other way around. The title should have been, "Does belief affect the regularity of church attendance habits?" <br /><br />By this circuitous logic, one could argue that people who eat at Italian restaurants come to like Italian cuisine - which would be equally bogus, as those who eat at Italian restaurants do so because they already do like Italian food.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-1418084355080347882010-03-14T21:36:46.057+00:002010-03-14T21:36:46.057+00:00Heh. Well yes, on reflection the title was a bit t...Heh. Well yes, on reflection the title was a bit too vague. The title should've been "Can going to church make you believe in a personal god?"<br /><br />The point is, you might expect beliefs about god to drive church going behaviour. But it looks like the church going behaviour may well drive the beliefs about god.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-34306148241975113702010-03-13T16:47:57.828+00:002010-03-13T16:47:57.828+00:00Can doing things affect stuff? Next!Can doing things affect stuff? Next!Protohttp://protoposthuman.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com