tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post5248952180434480757..comments2023-10-31T10:57:37.652+00:00Comments on Epiphenom: Why some countries are more religious than othersEpiphenomhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-79150705118740101142014-02-27T21:09:31.795+00:002014-02-27T21:09:31.795+00:00Ahh, looks like they've rejigged the website a...Ahh, looks like they've rejigged the website again. Links are fixed now!Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-43663338917238582462014-02-27T12:16:37.056+00:002014-02-27T12:16:37.056+00:00The links to the study don't seem to be workin...The links to the study don't seem to be working anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-85722377945597110042012-11-26T13:21:35.676+00:002012-11-26T13:21:35.676+00:00This is an incredibly poor paper and I am surprise...This is an incredibly poor paper and I am surprised it has achieved publication. You cannot attribute the individual level effects to aggregate country-level effects. That's just plain ridiculous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-66720749276391561732010-07-10T13:08:44.778+01:002010-07-10T13:08:44.778+01:00The idea that societies with more inequality tend ...The idea that societies with more inequality tend to be more religious is consistent with Pierre Bourdieu's theory of religion. Bourdieu argues that one of the main functions of religion is the legitimation of inequality. See:<br /><br />Terry Rey, <i>Bourdieu on Religion: Imposing Faith and Legitimacy</i> (London: Equinox, 2007).<br /><br />Or this early article:<br /><br />Pierre Bourdieu, <a href="http://ifile.it/5rf3lti" rel="nofollow">“Legitimation and Structured Interests in Weber's Sociology of Religion,”</a> in <i>Max Weber, Rationality and Modernity</i>, ed. Scott Lash and Sam Whimster (London: Allen & Unwin, 1987), 119-136.Benjamin Geerhttp://sites.google.com/site/benjamingeer/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-914382422959865712009-09-05T21:07:36.234+01:002009-09-05T21:07:36.234+01:00I have just read your first and second posts. Noti...I have just read your first and second posts. Noting your predictive numbers I found the assumptions all of us would normally make, proved true for most of the countries except the USA. Obviously, there is more prayer here than any of us expected. At about 2 on a 1-7 scale, I would say that this result belies anecdotal observation. It is somewhat heartening that people in general have a deeper self than is revealed in our ever distracting environment.<br /><br />I noticed that some of the comments assumed maybe less "easy" lives produced the prayer. That is somewhat superficial given that a prosperous country also has a similar "prayer value". <br /><br />Many environmental influences can impact as you have stated,but what struck me is the way USA jumps out. I am sure some prayer is what is in it for me...relief of pain, stress, straits, economy, food, etc. But there are many forms or styles of prayer...meditation on a nature level, meditation on a mystical level, or just adoration and worship.<br /><br />The types of prayer may affect the frequency as well. For example, prayer of petition, may be in times of need and lack of the stuff of life, but it might also be a want, not need. Or it could be altruistic for another or unknown persons, etc. [A blind study was done in a NY hospital, where patients suffering from diabeties with similar progressive stages were put into 2 control groups...1 group received prayer from strangers and on a daily basis for their recovery. The other did not. Neither group knew they were in a study at all. A majority, 80% of the prayed for group improved through stabilization of sugar, or healed from "diabetic wounds" twice as fast. But I digress. Just thought you might find that interesting.]<br /><br />The other types of prayer imply the disposition of the person praying: Prayers of Praise, prayers of forgiveness, prayers of thanksgiving. So when speaking of prayer in general...no direct conclusion can be made as to why some pray more than others. The difference between taking/wanting for self and giving of self.<br /><br />The environ impacts can include everything from family, upbringing, education, community support and/or encouragement, work, play, etc. Your premise is thought provoking and well done empirically. <br /><br />I would like to see your "another post" for the outlier America. As for me, I prefer to think of us as a generous and thankful people. :-)Nanettenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-36061399966019587592009-07-28T22:00:38.084+01:002009-07-28T22:00:38.084+01:00I think praying is most importantly an attempt to ...I think praying is most importantly an attempt to "do" something about your life, your intention is to change/improve your situation. So I'd suggest a connection as follows: in a relatively free and egalitarian society, you have the freedom and capacity (including wealth and security) to make decisions about your life. If you don't have these opportunities (of feel you don't), prayer is the most powerful resource you can turn to (since there are no other choices). <br />Of course the sad thing is the vicious circle you mentioned in one of your comments. <br />As to the US, just some guesses (I live in Europe): some local communities seem to be quite closed with members supervising each other, which may reduce levels of (perceived) freedom in making personal choices (especially if they are perceived as deviant). Also the lower level of social security may entail more anxiety and a higher necessity to rely on these closed community networks, ergo less freedom, and prayer for divine intercession instead of solving the problem yourself.H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-47986572935379303382009-07-27T22:31:05.962+01:002009-07-27T22:31:05.962+01:00Yair, I think that the difference is small and it&...Yair, I think that the difference is small and it's difficult to read too much into it. But my guess would be that Israel is less religious than you might expect because when politicians start using religion as a prop it tends to turn people off it. Also, the survey was conducted (I think) just before the start of the second intifada. The intifada might have been expected to increase the numbers of people turning to religion on both sides.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-21225802285533539362009-07-27T16:31:17.614+01:002009-07-27T16:31:17.614+01:00Ah, then my initial problem remains - Israel is le...Ah, then my initial problem remains - Israel is less religious than the index, despite my analysis of the bias leading it in the other direction. Intriguing.<br /><br />Yairיאיר רזקhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15798134654972572485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-71427106644000551182009-07-27T14:47:17.314+01:002009-07-27T14:47:17.314+01:00Hi Yari: high numbers = less religious (sorry, tha...Hi Yari: high numbers = less religious (sorry, that wasn't at all clear from my post). So the US is more religious than the model predicts, and Israel is slightly less religious.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-62632802139271560382009-07-27T12:16:14.213+01:002009-07-27T12:16:14.213+01:00Ah, looking at the table I see I misread the data....Ah, looking at the table I see I misread the data. (I was just guessing being on the other sides of the USA meant *less* religiosity.) Israel is more religious than the index predicts - which makes sense in light of the biases I noted.<br /><br />The US is less religious than the model predicts?! That's weird. I was always under the impression it was far more religious than the indexes predicted.<br /><br />Yairיאיר רזקhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15798134654972572485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-21317069121374662802009-07-27T12:10:33.849+01:002009-07-27T12:10:33.849+01:00Nice analysis.
I wonder about Israel (my country)...Nice analysis.<br /><br />I wonder about Israel (my country), which seems to be less religious than the index implies. I would guess that its reported levels of religious pluralism are higher than actual fact, and of religious regulation lower than actual fact; it's more religious that it appears in official statistics, due to its desires to appear Western. I would also have guessed the "other factos", mostly historical-cultural ones, to push it towards religion. All that would have meant having an even higher expected religiosity, however, wouldn't it? And yet it has less religiosity. Strange.יאיר רזקhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15798134654972572485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-71640871611013451892009-07-22T20:58:34.671+01:002009-07-22T20:58:34.671+01:00Hi Victor, if you start from the 'S' in So...Hi Victor, if you start from the 'S' in South Sorea, and travel left and slightly downwards... that's Mexico! <br /><br />I'm going to post a table showing how all the countries in the analysis score - next blog post!Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-45557244658361120202009-07-22T04:55:04.860+01:002009-07-22T04:55:04.860+01:00This is so amazingly akin to my intuitions that re...This is so amazingly akin to my intuitions that religiosity as a social phenomenon tends to be highly connected to stupidity and that has been linked already to several other indices such as crimminality, family violence, jail issues, less income, less life expectancy and so on. <br /><br />I live in Mexico, can you tell me where, if it is, is our dot?<br /><br />Thank you Tom and congratulations for making public this interest of you!...Víctor Peralta...noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-87824586476709648162009-07-09T21:02:37.297+01:002009-07-09T21:02:37.297+01:00UtahGamer, you're absolutely right that the ev...<b>UtahGamer</b>, you're absolutely right that the evidence for causation doesn't come from this study. The evidence comes from a very large range of studies which show that people put in stressful situations have increased religiousness.<br /><br />Building on this, I tried to find out whether this is a plausible explanation for a previous finding that unhealthy societies are more religious. My study supports that, although of course it is not the final word.<br /><br />But! It is also very likely that there is some reverse causality. Other studies have shown that religious people place less value on social welfare programmes. So there is likely to be a vicious circle in operation.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-71907973651512010082009-07-09T20:54:35.132+01:002009-07-09T20:54:35.132+01:00jdhuey, good point. I should've made it clear ...jdhuey, good point. I should've made it clear that these data are for praying <b>outside</b> of religious services. So formal prayer like the Islamic Salat don't count.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-22566447996379764882009-07-09T20:52:25.960+01:002009-07-09T20:52:25.960+01:00Thanks Bjørn :) Denmark is the dot between Russia ...Thanks Bjørn :) Denmark is the dot between Russia and Sweden. The dot near the Czech Republic is France. I think that you're right, with regards to the future of the US. <br /><br />There are feedback in the reverse direction - with religion damping down social welfare. The thing that interests me is whether there are multiple stable points, which you might expect with a feedback loop. In which case, a society with a given level of religion and welfare would resist being moved until it reached a tipping point. Then there would be a shift to a new set point.<br /><br />I did quite a lot of research on this. My original intent was to look at both directions of causality. Unfortunately the data just aren't strong enough to do that. But I do have a nice analysis that shows religion seems to be a factor in increased income inequality. A topic for another post!<br /><br />Coming back to the US, there are several structural factors that work against social welfare including, bizarrely enough, the electoral system. The mechanics of First-past-the-post systems means that they are less likely to result in leftist governments. PR makes it easier for liberals to get in.Epiphenomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05420404206189437710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-91662287565339186252009-07-09T16:19:40.610+01:002009-07-09T16:19:40.610+01:00I love the approach and believe you are finding va...I love the approach and believe you are finding valid associations with religious behavior at the societal level. However, your make some statements in conclusion that imply a causal direction, that restricting religion causes a decrease in religious behavior and modernization causes a decrease in religious behavior. Causality can't be inferred from your study. It could well be that abandoning religion by people leads to more interest in modernization and more willingness to impose restrictions on religion. Alternatively, there could be a third factor influencing both. For instance, a perception of international competitive forces could lead to people both abandoning religion and being interested in modernization (witness the US reaction to the launch of Sputnik, for instance). Still, I like the analysis.UtahGamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06529997970507318137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-71826756253144220142009-07-09T00:03:19.821+01:002009-07-09T00:03:19.821+01:00I wonder at the frequency of prayer stat for Islam...I wonder at the frequency of prayer stat for Islamic countries. For example given that Iran is a theocracy and there are 5 official prayers per day I wonder just what the respondents meant. Did they consider the daily prayers as part of a religious ceremony (thus lowering frequency)? And if so, isn't this a rather distorted picture of religiosity?jdhueyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14548783175350394626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-33820680429120935862009-07-08T23:20:08.694+01:002009-07-08T23:20:08.694+01:00/humor mode on/
So, perhaps all the social ills y.../humor mode on/<br /><br />So, perhaps all the social ills you listed are <b>caused</b> by praying. So, praying is not only ineffectual it is harmful. God gets ticked off by being prayed to. So, to improve a society all we have to do is to get them to stop praying. Sounds like a plan.<br /><br />/humor mode off/jdhueyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14548783175350394626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-20260461814782597412009-07-08T22:46:53.294+01:002009-07-08T22:46:53.294+01:00Very nice. Thanks for linking me to this. I suppos...Very nice. Thanks for linking me to this. I suppose that it does make a certain level of intuitive sense that the more precarious a person's livelihood the more likely that person will turn to prayer. After all, it seems to me that people typically pray when they want to alleviate some undesirable situation, no?Jameshttp://www.anatheist.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1051713021757781960.post-49742155766899624692009-07-08T22:26:13.801+01:002009-07-08T22:26:13.801+01:00Congratulations are in ordar.
Is there data on De...Congratulations are in ord<i>ar</i>.<br /><br />Is there data on Denmark? Just curious how much the Danes pray vs. what the model predicts.<br /><br />I have been saying for years that when the U.S. gets national health care for everybody, society will transform. I predict that in a single generation, political and religious attitudes will change markedly for the better (from my point of view). And with the U.S., so will the whole world.Bjørn Østmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08859177313382114917noreply@blogger.com