Comments on Epiphenom: Protestants tempt fate, but atheists don't!

Sounds very plausible... although it still begs th...

2010-06-07T21:28:38.490+01:00

Sounds very plausible... although it still begs the question of why the difference in response between religious and non-religious!

I think this experiment could have something to do...

2010-06-06T00:07:59.834+01:00

I think this experiment could have something to do with the fact that you commit more to a statement that you have written down than just thought about. And you commit even more if others can see what you have written (or said).

The research behind this is in the book Influence by Robert Cialdini.

I'd like to see more studies on this. Specifi...

2010-06-04T04:41:27.871+01:00

I'd like to see more studies on this. Specifically, I'd like to see this done with a group of people who were fundamentalists for most of their lives, and are now non-believers. And I would also like to see the study done with (if you can find them) those who were raised as non-believers and are now rabid fundamentalists. I think data from these groups could be very informative in evaluating any pre-existing "cognitive bias"

In my experience, people may hear conflicting idea...

2010-05-31T10:56:51.847+01:00

In my experience, people may hear conflicting ideas and walk away tightened against them, but part of their mind stores it. Then, if things in their life change and those formerly detested ideas become useful, the mind will bring them to life as allies.

This is why the studies may not show change, because they are looking for immediate change.

Thus, when evangelizing, it is important to sow the Word and be patient with its blossoming.

This is a cross-cultural truth: for both Christians and Atheists. Smile.

Thanks for that one, Matt - I hadn't seen it. ...

2010-05-31T08:53:47.467+01:00

Thanks for that one, Matt - I hadn't seen it. I think it's right, though - it's hard to shift people's opinions, regardless of their religious persuasion. The previous post (Science can't prove that!) gives an example of a study where people tended to come out more convinced of their prior beliefs - regardless of whether they were shown confirming or disconfirming evidence.

Of course people do change opinions, so at some point evidence must have an impact. It just doesn't seem to be in these kinds of studies!

Matt, I humbly submit that the tendency you mentio...

2010-05-30T04:23:02.216+01:00

Matt, I humbly submit that the tendency you mention of rejecting ideas that seem to contradict and undermine one's own fundamental and cherished beliefs is not something Christians alone or even other "magical thinkers" do. I'm pretty sure - though correct me if I'm wrong - that when you are faced with magical thinking that challenges your beliefs, you grow ever more sure in your non-magical thinking. Right? It's only natural. We all do it to one degree and another.

Wow! I never fail to be amazed by the pervasivene...

2010-05-30T04:14:27.029+01:00

Wow! I never fail to be amazed by the pervasiveness of magical thinking. I recall another study along these same lines. I'll try to dig it up. Tom, do you know about this study:

C. Daniel Batson, in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (Rational Processing or Rationalization?: The Effect of Discontinuing Information on a Stated Religious Belief

Batson showed Christians a newspaper article that undermined the historical origins of Christianity and found that their beliefs got more deeply entrenched.

Matt

This is absolutely fascinating. I was a fundament...

2010-05-29T23:14:19.374+01:00

This is absolutely fascinating. I was a fundamentalist Baptist for nearly a decade so I can put myself in that mindset fairly easily now if I want even since I’ve completely let go of any type of supernatural belief.

Imagining myself in that situation with Christian beliefs, I would have torn up the one about sex but not the one about the car accident. I can never remember ever finding the fusion of thought and action to be slightly plausible. However…

I would have torn up the one about sex because it was possibly evidence of “impure” or "sinful" thoughts. It’s not clear whether the experiment could have controlled for this motivation rather than for the people who thought it might actually happen.

My thoughts would have been following something along these lines: “Is this where I want to be when Jesus comes back? Standing here with a piece of paper that says I hope I have sex with a family member?” I would have known that the paper was not true, but I wouldn’t have wanted it brought against me in the “court of God.”

But this line of thought is fascinating in its own right since obviously God is claimed to be omniscient and would have known the truth. It just shows that people’s concepts of god are very anthropomorphic – bearing out Jason Slone’s work on theological incorrectness.

@ Samuel Not sure why you called "Ian Morris...

2010-05-29T21:18:56.484+01:00

@ Samuel

Not sure why you called "Ian Morrison" "Spitz", but I think I disagree with your criticism.

Thoughts come bundled with emotions. If Ian meant the negative emotions (hate, fear, lethargy etc) that come with negative thoughts, then I think using imaginary thoughts to rid oneself of such undesirable thought-emotions could be very useful even if it is superstitious.

Jemand, they didn't assess that. It was all pr...

2010-05-29T21:14:08.410+01:00

Jemand, they didn't assess that. It was all pretty structured. Then they were told that the experiment was over and they could do what they liked.

To be honest, I suspect I would've torn the paper up... but I don't know why! Perhaps just to help get the thought out of my mind.

Samuel, couldn't be sure but I suspect visuali...

2010-05-29T21:11:49.941+01:00

Samuel, couldn't be sure but I suspect visualising success helps to generate an unrealistic expectation of success. I've seen data that shows successful people tend to have unreasonable estimates of their own abilities. You can see how that might help if success is partly down to chance. Of course, you have to have some sense of reality too.

So, in that regard, if visualising success makes it seem more probable, then it could be a self-fulfilling illusion!

"Negative thoughts(no matter how meaningless)...

2010-05-29T20:00:54.440+01:00

"Negative thoughts(no matter how meaningless) may have negative consequences later down the line...even psychologically. Therefore anything I could do to cancel those negative thoughts would be helpful."

This is superstitious. It turns filling in a sentence on a piece of paper into: "a generator of negative thoughts that must be warded off by any means possible lest they lead to consequences later down the line... even psychologically." It's just a sentence. You don't need to respond that way. My mom is going to explode next week and I'm going to eat all of the charred pieces of her flesh.

@Sabio - yes, muscle memory also played a part in ...

2010-05-29T18:43:54.503+01:00

@Sabio - yes, muscle memory also played a part in it.

is there any data on who did what before they were...

2010-05-29T18:09:38.597+01:00

is there any data on who did what before they were told "you can do anything you want to neutralize the note..."

Perhaps the difference is a difference in suggestibility, the idea that the note could be neutralized and that maybe they should do it. Perhaps believers are just more likely to be suggestible.

On the other hand, after such a suggestion like that, I might very well turn over the note, though probably not rip it up.

@ Samuel Wasn't part of the athlete visualiza...

2010-05-29T16:41:34.190+01:00

@ Samuel

Wasn't part of the athlete visualization reasoning is that it reinforces actually muscle memory and thus improves the real activity as opposed to simply a confidence exercise?

Tom - how do you think this relates to the activit...

2010-05-29T16:36:55.707+01:00

Tom - how do you think this relates to the activity of "visualization" that is often taught to business people and athletes - wherein they imagine themselves performing an act.

I don't know much of the literature on the subject.... but as far as athletes go - visualizing success may enforce their belief in success which makes them work harder to succeed or relieve anxieties about failure. It may not have any effect on reality directly, but it may pragmatically prime their brains to succeed increasing the chance of their success at an athletic task.

Perhaps this is similar to studies where-in....
You give the experimental group a task and the control group a task.
The experimental group is primed with "you will achieve this task" while the control group receives no primer.

It could also work the other way around with a primer "this task will not be accomplished."

While the primer has no effect on making the task objectively easier or difficult, perhaps the primer makes the individual more likely to succeed (or fail) at the task?

Tom, I decided to make a short post to illustrate my thoughts on this post. Please take a look.

After a terrible flight over China, I had amazing ...

2010-05-29T14:53:53.973+01:00

After a terrible flight over China, I had amazing flying phobia for years. To calm myself on flights, I felt that if I were to imagine the scene at the airport I was arriving at, then it must happen. I felt if I forced the visualization it would improve the chances of a safe arrival. All the while a part of me knew this was ridiculous nonsense but another part of me fully believed it. So of course I did it. And look, I have always arrived safely to date.

I think some people are more inclined to these cognitive issues than others. Perhaps "Natural born" atheists are more inclined, but many of us Atheists who were former believers may still be so inclined. I would say it is simply a risk factor for believism!

i am an atheist, but was raised by lutherans. my p...

2010-05-29T07:43:24.356+01:00

i am an atheist, but was raised by lutherans. my parents were very abusive and often asked me "what are you thinking?" -- a seemingly innocent question until they physically beat me for thinking "bad thoughts." after enduring years of that abuse, i still find this thought-action fusion thing to be alien, particularly since they also taught me to "think before you act." until you brought this paper to my attention, i thought my parents' behavior was merely the result of them trying to find yet another excuse to beat the shit out of me. (which actually is probably the case, but at least there is a potential alternate explanation as well).

Might "punishing" the note be a sort of ...

2010-05-29T01:57:37.025+01:00

Might "punishing" the note be a sort of atonement? A way of showing, oneself and God, that what just happened was sinful, or at least potentially sinful, and that one doesn't desire it ever to happen?

As a 'believer', I read this and wondered ...

2010-05-29T01:51:53.954+01:00

As a 'believer', I read this and wondered what my reaction would be. I have to say it would be to rip up the paper. My logic for this? Not superstition, but somewhat akin to the allusion made here. My thoughts and my actions are inextricably linked. Negative thoughts(no matter how meaningless) may have negative consequences later down the line...even psychologically. Therefore anything I could do to cancel those negative thoughts would be helpful.

Very interesting. It confirms my intuitions. I agr...

2010-05-29T01:08:40.413+01:00

Very interesting. It confirms my intuitions. I agree with you, it's a kind of hard coded cognitive bias, but necessary in my opinion. it's conscience.

Fascinating! Regarding whether a specific theology...

2010-05-28T23:45:07.564+01:00

Fascinating! Regarding whether a specific theology is the reason for the thought-action fusion or if it is, as you suggest, a deeper cognitive bias, it should be relatively easy to confirm by testing religious people who are not Protestants.